The Conversation Has Never Been Wider
4/20/2021 - 🖒 44
Published by kottke.org
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"content": "<p>I am still listening to <a href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-tressie-mcmillan-cottom-transcript.html\">the excellent interview</a> with <a href=\"https://tressiemc.com/\">Tressie McMillan Cottom</a> on The Ezra Klein Show, but I wanted to highlight this exchange right at the beginning of the interview because I think it’s relevant to a lot of our shared interests, especially if you’ve been online reading blogs or personal sites for 15, 20, or even 25 years:</p>\n<blockquote><p>EZRA KLEIN: Well, I’m always asking for us to bring back blogging.</p>\n<p>[LAUGHING]</p>\n<p>There is a nostalgia, oftentimes, among people who came up in it, for the internet of the aughts.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Yeah. The old internet.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: Do you think that’s nostalgia, or do you think something was lost?</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Hmm. OK. So I now work with a lot of internet people. I’m in an information school at a university. And so a lot of my very good friends are those people, so I want to tiptoe carefully. I do think that there was a clubbiness and a camaraderie, even among people who politically disagreed. There was a class of thinkers, a class of writers who came up in that web 2.0 that does feel like, yeah, we lost something there.</p>\n<p>There was a humanity there for good or for bad. Humanity is messy, but there was a sense that those ideas were attached to people, and there were things driving those people, there’s a reason they had chosen to be in that space before it all became about chasing an audience in a platform and turning that into influencer and translating that into that — before all that happened, the professionalization of it all. And that’s what I think we’re missing when we become nostalgic for that web 2.0. I think it’s the people in the machine.</p>\n<p>Having said that, I am very resistant to nostalgia as a thing because usually what we are nostalgic for is a time that just was not that great for a lot of people. And so what we were usually really nostalgic for is a time when we didn’t have to think so much about who was missing in the room, who wasn’t at the table. So when I talk to friends, and especially younger people coming up behind us either in the internet or in writing spaces, we’re like, that time was horrible for young queer people.</p>\n<p>They talk about looking for little safe pockets of space in web 2.0 world where it was still very OK to be homophobic, for example, in those spaces and our casual language and how we structured that kind of thing. And they love being able to leave that part behind in this new world of whatever the web is now, both a consolidated and a disaggregated new web.</p>\n<p>That’s why I’m like resistant to nostalgia. At the same time, I’m like, yeah. I also laugh and go, I really miss having a blog. In some ways, coming back to the newsletter, and Substack was kind part of that. It’s me being nostalgic for having a place where I could put thoughts that didn’t fit into any other discourse or genre, and I wanted a space where I could talk to people who were actually interacting like real people. They weren’t acting like bots, or trolls, or whatever your internet persona is.</p>\n<p>So, I mean, I say I’m resistant to nostalgia. I just try not to reproduce it, but even I get a little — I’ll always have a soft spot for Blogger, which is coincidentally my first “where I state” space on Blogger.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: Yup. Me too.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: [LAUGHS] I’ll always be a little romantic about it.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: But I think you’re right about that criticism of it, too. Something that, for all that I can tip into nostalgia, something that I think is often missed in today’s conversation is the conversation has never been wider.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Yes.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: People talk all about things they can’t say, but it has never been wider.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Yup.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: There’s never been a larger allowable space of things you could say.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: That’s right.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: And people have also never been more pissed about how it feels to participate in it. I don’t want to say never, but broadly, there is an intensity to that conversation that is distinct, and I don’t think those things are unrelated, right? I think it is the wideness of the conversation and the fact that there are so many people you might hear from that make you feel cautious and insecure and unsafe, and the good of it is the bad of it.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Exactly. One of the things I like to say to people is that we think that broadening access in any realm — we do this with everything, by the way. It’s such an American way to approach the world. We think that broadening access will broaden access on the terms of the people who have benefited from it being narrowed, which is just so counterintuitive.</p>\n<p>Broadening access doesn’t mean that everybody has the experience that I, privileged person, had in the discourse. Broadening it means that we are all equally uncomfortable, right? That’s actually what pluralism and plurality is. It isn’t that everybody is going to come in and have the same comforts that privilege and exclusion had extended to a small group of people. It’s that now everybody sits at the table, and nobody knows the exact right thing to say about the other people.</p>\n<p>Well, that’s fair. That means we all now have to be thoughtful. We all have to consider, oh, wait a minute. Is that what we say in this room? We all have to reconsider what the norms are, and that was the promise of like expanding the discourse, and that’s exactly what we’ve gotten. And if that means that I’m not sure about letting it rip on a joke, that’s probably a pretty good thing.</p></blockquote>\n<p>Look, as someone who benefitted hugely from it, I miss the golden age of blogging as much as anyone — productive discussions in comment threads, the community alchemy of Flickr, Google Reader, cross-blog conversations, the Open Web, small pieces loosely joined, etc. etc. etc. — but over the past few years, I’ve felt a <em>lot</em> less nostalgia for it for exactly the reasons McMillan Cottom & Klein are talking about here. Make the Internet Great Again is, in many important ways, as short-sighted, futile, and limiting as, well, you know.</p>\n<strong>Tags:</strong> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/Ezra%20Klein\">Ezra Klein</a> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/interviews\">interviews</a> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/Tressie%20McMillan%20Cottom\">Tressie McMillan Cottom</a> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/weblogs\">weblogs</a>",
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"unsanitized": "<html><head></head><body><p>I am still listening to <a href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-tressie-mcmillan-cottom-transcript.html\">the excellent interview</a> with <a href=\"https://tressiemc.com/\">Tressie McMillan Cottom</a> on The Ezra Klein Show, but I wanted to highlight this exchange right at the beginning of the interview because I think it’s relevant to a lot of our shared interests, especially if you’ve been online reading blogs or personal sites for 15, 20, or even 25 years:</p>\n<blockquote><p>EZRA KLEIN: Well, I’m always asking for us to bring back blogging.</p>\n<p>[LAUGHING]</p>\n<p>There is a nostalgia, oftentimes, among people who came up in it, for the internet of the aughts.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Yeah. The old internet.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: Do you think that’s nostalgia, or do you think something was lost?</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Hmm. OK. So I now work with a lot of internet people. I’m in an information school at a university. And so a lot of my very good friends are those people, so I want to tiptoe carefully. I do think that there was a clubbiness and a camaraderie, even among people who politically disagreed. There was a class of thinkers, a class of writers who came up in that web 2.0 that does feel like, yeah, we lost something there.</p>\n<p>There was a humanity there for good or for bad. Humanity is messy, but there was a sense that those ideas were attached to people, and there were things driving those people, there’s a reason they had chosen to be in that space before it all became about chasing an audience in a platform and turning that into influencer and translating that into that — before all that happened, the professionalization of it all. And that’s what I think we’re missing when we become nostalgic for that web 2.0. I think it’s the people in the machine.</p>\n<p>Having said that, I am very resistant to nostalgia as a thing because usually what we are nostalgic for is a time that just was not that great for a lot of people. And so what we were usually really nostalgic for is a time when we didn’t have to think so much about who was missing in the room, who wasn’t at the table. So when I talk to friends, and especially younger people coming up behind us either in the internet or in writing spaces, we’re like, that time was horrible for young queer people.</p>\n<p>They talk about looking for little safe pockets of space in web 2.0 world where it was still very OK to be homophobic, for example, in those spaces and our casual language and how we structured that kind of thing. And they love being able to leave that part behind in this new world of whatever the web is now, both a consolidated and a disaggregated new web.</p>\n<p>That’s why I’m like resistant to nostalgia. At the same time, I’m like, yeah. I also laugh and go, I really miss having a blog. In some ways, coming back to the newsletter, and Substack was kind part of that. It’s me being nostalgic for having a place where I could put thoughts that didn’t fit into any other discourse or genre, and I wanted a space where I could talk to people who were actually interacting like real people. They weren’t acting like bots, or trolls, or whatever your internet persona is.</p>\n<p>So, I mean, I say I’m resistant to nostalgia. I just try not to reproduce it, but even I get a little — I’ll always have a soft spot for Blogger, which is coincidentally my first “where I state” space on Blogger.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: Yup. Me too.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: [LAUGHS] I’ll always be a little romantic about it.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: But I think you’re right about that criticism of it, too. Something that, for all that I can tip into nostalgia, something that I think is often missed in today’s conversation is the conversation has never been wider.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Yes.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: People talk all about things they can’t say, but it has never been wider.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Yup.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: There’s never been a larger allowable space of things you could say.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: That’s right.</p>\n<p>EZRA KLEIN: And people have also never been more pissed about how it feels to participate in it. I don’t want to say never, but broadly, there is an intensity to that conversation that is distinct, and I don’t think those things are unrelated, right? I think it is the wideness of the conversation and the fact that there are so many people you might hear from that make you feel cautious and insecure and unsafe, and the good of it is the bad of it.</p>\n<p>TRESSIE MCMILLAN COTTOM: Exactly. One of the things I like to say to people is that we think that broadening access in any realm — we do this with everything, by the way. It’s such an American way to approach the world. We think that broadening access will broaden access on the terms of the people who have benefited from it being narrowed, which is just so counterintuitive.</p>\n<p>Broadening access doesn’t mean that everybody has the experience that I, privileged person, had in the discourse. Broadening it means that we are all equally uncomfortable, right? That’s actually what pluralism and plurality is. It isn’t that everybody is going to come in and have the same comforts that privilege and exclusion had extended to a small group of people. It’s that now everybody sits at the table, and nobody knows the exact right thing to say about the other people.</p>\n<p>Well, that’s fair. That means we all now have to be thoughtful. We all have to consider, oh, wait a minute. Is that what we say in this room? We all have to reconsider what the norms are, and that was the promise of like expanding the discourse, and that’s exactly what we’ve gotten. And if that means that I’m not sure about letting it rip on a joke, that’s probably a pretty good thing.</p></blockquote>\n<p>Look, as someone who benefitted hugely from it, I miss the golden age of blogging as much as anyone — productive discussions in comment threads, the community alchemy of Flickr, Google Reader, cross-blog conversations, the Open Web, small pieces loosely joined, etc. etc. etc. — but over the past few years, I’ve felt a <em>lot</em> less nostalgia for it for exactly the reasons McMillan Cottom & Klein are talking about here. Make the Internet Great Again is, in many important ways, as short-sighted, futile, and limiting as, well, you know.</p>\n<strong>Tags:</strong> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/Ezra%20Klein\">Ezra Klein</a> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/interviews\">interviews</a> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/Tressie%20McMillan%20Cottom\">Tressie McMillan Cottom</a> <a href=\"https://kottke.org/tag/weblogs\">weblogs</a></body></html>"
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